IFS PROJECT BUGGY

[Ford_KTM]

Lately I have been kicking around the idea of a IFS buggy...

Thinking about the specs:

Ford 3.0 duratech or 3.0 SHO motor

FOA 18 inch coilovers front and rear

4 wheel steer

4 Hydro rams, 1 for every knuckle

40 inch creepies...

2-9 inch or toy rear centers narrowed as much as possible

4 unimog steering portals

Once I have this I would take the shafts out of the steering portals and mate them up to 1350 flanges and those would bolt to the shafts coming out from the centers...

I know its doable and I would like to go this route if the money come about.

The only ONE thing I am concerned about it the flexing issue. Not that it won't flex enough, but that when flexed onto a rock or ramp, the buggy won't lean enough away from the rock, but simply conform to it. This would help and times, and hinder at times I believe...

What is your guys' thoughts????

[werty]

Why not just run the portals and 4 link it?

[MR.ROCKAPE]

IT HAS BEEN DONE WITH MORE $$$ THROWN AT IT THAT I COULD IMAGINE....(WHEN I SAW THIS TRUCK AT THE VERY LAST MOONROCKS COMP EVER IN 2003-4??I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS GONNA BE THE UNBEATABLE RIG.....)

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/brandpages/chevy/131_0306_evan_walker_chevrolet_s10/index.html

WALKER DID TWO OR THREE COMPS WITH IT AND SCRAPPED IT...THEY MAINLY HAD AN ISSUE OF KEEPING THE FRONT WHEELS IN TIME WITH EACH OTHER...SINCE THEY WORKED OFF OF SEPARATE RAMS!!!

AND I HEARD WALKER TELL SOMEONE THE AXLE CENTER SECTIONS COST 25K EACH!!!NOT COUNTING THE AXLES/JOINTS/ KNUCKLES!!!!

OTHER THAN THE STEERING YOU GOT SOMETHING THAT IS DO-ABLE!!!

[Connect]

Can't you link the two ram's hydrualics together in order to creat an equal movement? Not that you want it to be equal... You could also link the two a-arms together with a single pivot sway bar device (one goes up, the other goes down) and make a solid tie-rod... Defies the point of having the thing conform to objects but you'd have mad diff clearance.

What happens when a stock Honda Rack and Pinion system flexes out? The tire pulls out?

[MR.ROCKAPE]

Can't you link the two ram's hydrualics together in order to creat an equal movement? Not that you want it to be equal... You could also link the two a-arms together with a single pivot sway bar device (one goes up, the other goes down) and make a solid tie-rod... Defies the point of having the thing conform to objects but you'd have mad diff clearance.

What happens when a stock Honda Rack and Pinion system flexes out? The tire pulls out?

NEVER SEEN IT...THE OUTER TIE ROD ENDS HAVE LESS TRAVEL THAN THE ONES AT THE RACK AND THEY USUALLY SNAP OFF....

THIS MIGHT BE POSSIBLE IF A DOUBLE ENDED RAM WAS USED TO CONTROL BITH FRONT WHEELS...BUT THE GEOMETRY MIGHT BE ONE TOUGH MUTHA TO KEEP THE WHEELS POINTING STRAIGHT TO EACH OTHER THROUGH-OUT THE SUSPENSION TRAVEL!!!

[Ford_KTM]

Why 25k for the centers???? That seems totally outragous. Everything changes when something goes into actual production, but I don't see why a reg third mem with stubby shafts wouldn't work. That part seems to be the easiest of the whole thing if you ask me. The steering is gonna be the big issue with all that travel.

[MR.ROCKAPE]

Why 25k for the centers???? That seems totally outragous. Everything changes when something goes into actual production, but I don't see why a reg third mem with stubby shafts wouldn't work. That part seems to be the easiest of the whole thing if you ask me. The steering is gonna be the big issue with all that travel.

I WAS JUST STATING WHAT HE CLAIMED HE PAID.....

edit:But how do you hope to retain the axles???Im thinking that is what cost a ton of $$$ to engineer...plus those centers were dynatrac.....:cool:

[Ford_KTM]

I WAS JUST STATING WHAT HE CLAIMED HE PAID.....

edit:But how do you hope to retain the axles???Im thinking that is what cost a ton of $$$ to engineer...plus those centers were dynatrac.....:cool:

I'm thinking just standerd c-clip with the stock 31 spline shafts just shortend... I mean I know that it wouldn't be super strong, but it will be gear reduced by the portals anyway...

[rusty_tlc]

I'm thinking just standerd c-clip with the stock 31 spline shafts just shortend... I mean I know that it wouldn't be super strong, but it will be gear reduced by the portals anyway...
Wouldn't you need an inner cv to let it flex up and down?

Or did I miss something?

[Connect]

Wouldn't you need an inner cv to let it flex up and down?

Or did I miss something?

If both angles are matched and there was a yoke coming off the case then no you would not.

Here was my steering "idea" Sorry no CAD at home.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/nrminime/hydro.jpg

[MR.ROCKAPE]

I'm thinking just standerd c-clip with the stock 31 spline shafts just shortend... I mean I know that it wouldn't be super strong, but it will be gear reduced by the portals anyway...

9 inch's and toys dont use c-clips...thats a gm thing!!!Im not saying it cant be done...i just think there is gonna be some work in alot of areas to make it all work together!!!

[EastCoast44]

I've done the center section part before -

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=495400&highlight=badlands+apache

It wasn't a huge deal to do when I worked at a full machine shop. Trying to get a shop to machine the stuff for you may be a pain in the ass.

As far as my opinion of an IFS buggy, its been done 3 or 4 times I know of and none of them were happy with the buggy's performance. It sounds like a lot of work for something that won't work as well as a straight axle buggy.

[rusty_tlc]

If both angles are matched and there was a yoke coming off the case then no you would not.

Here was my steering "idea" Sorry no CAD at home.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/nrminime/hydro.jpg

I think you would need some feed back to keep the two rams in sync, there may be enough differences in the flow rates between the two sides to get them mismatched. You could probably come up with a bypass valve linked between the sides that would regulate flow to keep them matched.

[recoveryfive]

i think your best bet is to use the same set up as a M998 humvee. it uses a GM 10 bolt center with flush mounted yokes and CV axles. the diffs are fixed mounted with unequal control arms.

[Robicon]

i think your best bet is to use the same set up as a M998 humvee. it uses a GM 10 bolt center with flush mounted yokes and CV axles. the diffs are fixed mounted with unequal control arms.

Yeah and they have a whopping 8" of wheel travel :eek:

[Mrburns]

9 inch's and toys dont use c-clips...thats a gm thing!!!Im not saying it cant be done...i just think there is gonna be some work in alot of areas to make it all work together!!!

why not an 8.8 rear? C-clips and 31 spline...

[rusty_tlc]

9 inch's and toys dont use c-clips...thats a gm thing!!!Im not saying it cant be done...i just think there is gonna be some work in alot of areas to make it all work together!!!
I didn't notice this before.
Most Toyota Land Cruisers have a semi floating rear axle which uses c-clips. (If they have a full float rear it is because someone installed a non-US axle.) Do the mini trucks use a full floater?

[Connect]

If you link the ends of the ram together with a single hydro line, like some rigs do on solid axle applications, that would work even better for the steering.

[MR.ROCKAPE]

why not an 8.8 rear? C-clips and 31 spline...

8.8s arent known for their massive strength....or aftermarket support!

I didn't notice this before.
Most Toyota Land Cruisers have a semi floating rear axle which uses c-clips. (If they have a full float rear it is because someone installed a non-US axle.) Do the mini trucks use a full floater?

I dont think they are FF....but I know they arent c-clip.

I think the idea of a IFS rig sounds good but a shit ton of tuning would be in order to make it work.....and I m not sure anyone is willing to do it.....also the cv axles are big $$$ to get the turning radius and range of up and down motion to be effective!!!

Its too bad the OP abandoned this thread........ It is possible upper BC scared him outta the sport........:Big Grin:

[jeeper89]

Its too bad the OP abandoned this thread........ It is possible upper BC scared him outta the sport........:Big Grin:

he is now working in the mini department:gapteeth:

[WILLD420]

Take the idea that they use for TTB's and Desert running. I think they call it a K-link steering. It works for Long travel TTB's, why not for your application?

If you have to use factory parts and cheap is the issue, I would start with a TTB D-50 center section. Have somebody cut you a 35 spline ARB or locker of your choice. Or use the Dana 44 center and a 35 spline ARB, or use the 30 spline stuff till $$ allows.. It's already set up for C-clip on one side most of the time, unless they made it like the lock rites where you have to remove the c-clip. This would give you a high pinion Diff, that's made for having exposed shafts. Then go from there.

It's all about the $$ when you get down to it.

I think that would solve a lot of issues for you right off the bat. With portal gear reduction outers, you could probably get away with the weaker overall center. Especially considering the 10-bolt Hummer comment above. For some reason I always thought they used the 14bolt metric pumpkin in the center.

How are you going to attach the A-arms to the outers?

As for the steering. No matter how good a hydraulic setup you have, there will be some leakage somewhere in that system, internally. That means sooner or later, those rams aren't going to steer in the same direction. While it's a good theory, like any other theory, it can fail in reality. Unless you have a way to lock those two tires together they aren't going to point in the same direction after a few turns.

Now, if you really wanted to revolutionize things, you could find electric servo motors that would be synchronized electronically, that might give you what you are looking for, but if Delphi didn't go that way, then I'm thinking it might be more $$ than even GM would spend..